Rich in one bank, lean in the other, equal on load

Pete fender

Pete Fender
You DO NEED the cam position sensor, it controls both injection AND ignition timing.
Try it yourself and your motor will loose power, if it keeps running at all.
It my run because of a default setting, but the timing of both the fuel and spark would always be the same, putting the car into a limp mode condition.
Anytime a Cam Sensor is faulty, you will get a cam code.
If it didn't matter, why would all of the fuel injected cars, and even Diesel engines have them, with the price of parts?
Because it allows variable timing, like the flyweights or vacuum advance, or both, in distributors, and the fuel timing in a fuel injected engine must inject quicker as rpm's increase..
The faster you rev the engine, the more advanced the spark and fuel.
It's your car, do what you want, but I want mine dependable.
It was built that way for a reason, not just to drive the oil pump. It also is interfaced with an automatic transmission.
Makes me laugh.
The guys here in the shop, also!


As far as the line from the throttle body to the evap, hose, I just used some new fuel line and clamps.
The hose from the factory is very thin, and was collapsing.
New hose is thicker, but it at least does not look like it will ever give problems again.
 

Pete fender

Pete Fender
I haven't read in detail all of the responses to this thread but here's my worthless 2 cents:

I had a truck come in the shop the 3 days ago. Although it was a ford 4.0l the issue was the same. Lean bank 1 rich bank 2. Ran like crap.

I unplugged maf to force it into the failed maf table which helps to rule out maf and o2 sensors as the source of the problem.

Still the same thing. ran bad, lean bank 1 rich bank 2. Removed the vacuum line to the egr valve and the engine immediately ran smooth. The egr solenoid was stuck open causing the egr valve to be open at all times that the intake manifold was under vacuum.

Just to verify that the ground circuit wasn't the issue causing the solenoid to stay open I unplugged the electrical connector at the solenoid but the solenoid was still open.

Replaced the solenoid, and all was well after that.

One of the better ideas, but I think that was tried.
The EGR is often over looked as a source of a poor running engine.
3.8's use vacuum instead of a solenoid, but has the same effect.
 

Sam36

Active Member
I'd pull every hose that is behind the throttle plate and cap/tape them up. Pull the egr valve too and plug that hole in the intake. Then see what happens.. Clearly something is up with #4. I wouldn't rule out a bad coil until you try two or three different ones.
 

fasterthanyou

Active Member
You DO NEED the cam position sensor, it controls both injection AND ignition timing.
Try it yourself and your motor will loose power, if it keeps running at all.
It my run because of a default setting, but the timing of both the fuel and spark would always be the same, putting the car into a limp mode condition.
Anytime a Cam Sensor is faulty, you will get a cam code.
If it didn't matter, why would all of the fuel injected cars, and even Diesel engines have them, with the price of parts?
Because it allows variable timing, like the flyweights or vacuum advance, or both, in distributors, and the fuel timing in a fuel injected engine must inject quicker as rpm's increase..
The faster you rev the engine, the more advanced the spark and fuel.
It's your car, do what you want, but I want mine dependable.
It was built that way for a reason, not just to drive the oil pump. It also is interfaced with an automatic transmission.
Makes me laugh.
The guys here in the shop, also!


As far as the line from the throttle body to the evap, hose, I just used some new fuel line and clamps.
The hose from the factory is very thin, and was collapsing.
New hose is thicker, but it at least does not look like it will ever give problems again.
Have you ever taken a look at the injector timing table for these motors? Its flat at 260 degrees... I reiterate that for THESE MOTORS the cam sensor is literally useless. I do not use the cam sensor on mine. If I really wanted to have sequential injector firing for controlling individual cylinder trims I could do that by wiring in the cam sensor. But eh, it's simpler just to leave mine in batch fire at 260 and call it a day. I'm not breaking any records with my build.

I agree that modern factory engines need more resolution for monitoring and controlling cam phasing, injector phasing, runner controls, etc but these motors are pretty old tech.
 

fasterthanyou

Active Member
Only thing that controls ignition timing on these is the crank sensor. I don't have a bone to pick with you personally so don't take my replies as aggressive. Just correcting your post so others don't go on with bad info. Sorry man

Edit: the coolant temp air temp, engine load vs rpm affect timing.. I meant as a general comment that the crank sensor is the main source.
 

fasterthanyou

Active Member
3.8's use vacuum instead of a solenoid, but has the same effect.
These use egr solenoids... the solenoid opens and closes to either allow manifold vacuum to the egr diaphragm or block manifold vacuum to the egr diaphragm.

you must be thinking of gm egr solenoids where the solenoid is mounted directly onto the egr valve.
 

Pete fender

Pete Fender
You're right, I was mistaken on that solenoid.
This link better tells about the relationship of the cam sensor, crank sensor and what they do.
"To determine which cylinder is in its power stroke, your car's computer monitors the rotating position of the camshaft relative to the crankshaft position using a camshaft position (CMP) sensor. It uses this information to adjust the spark timing and the operation of the fuel injectors. Thus, the CMP sensor affects fuel economy, emissions control, and engine efficiency."
A bad sensor can lock your transmission into one gear...
Symptoms of a Bad Camshaft Position Sensor
 
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fasterthanyou

Active Member
You're right, I was mistaken on that solenoid.
This link better tells about the relationship of the cam sensor, crank sensor and what they do.
"To determine which cylinder is in its power stroke, your car's computer monitors the rotating position of the camshaft relative to the crankshaft position using a camshaft position (CMP) sensor. It uses this information to adjust the spark timing and the operation of the fuel injectors. Thus, the CMP sensor affects fuel economy, emissions control, and engine efficiency."
A bad sensor can lock your transmission into one gear...
Symptoms of a Bad Camshaft Position Sensor
Okay well I'm done trying to push this topic. You're incorrect in saying that these lose power, wont shift and whatnot with no cam sensor (on these motors.)

Leaving this discussion at that. Have a good one.
 

Pete fender

Pete Fender
Why did Ford go through the trouble and expense installing them in every car and truck they make?
GM?
Chrysler?
Fiat?
All Japanese cars?Just a way to drive the oil pump?
That last one has my whole shop laughing!
 

Chris Henderson

New Member
Dang. And I thought this aggravating crazy stuff only happened to me.
Interesting post. Any update?
I lost track of which side is doing what but remember, while you are hunting around, a miss will cause a lean condition in the O2 sensor's world. NOT a rich reading.
 

fasterthanyou

Active Member
Why did Ford go through the trouble and expense installing them in every car and truck they make?
GM?
Chrysler?
Fiat?
All Japanese cars?Just a way to drive the oil pump?
That last one has my whole shop laughing!
You keep overlooking my key words (these motors). Cam sensors are needed for engines with more features. I can go into detail on what those are if you need me to spell it out for you but since you say you're a mechanic you should know all of this already..

I take no offense to your jab at me saying your shop laughed at my comment. That's fine, they just don't know what they're talking about and I do know what I'm talking about... I am confident in this topic.

Batch fire injection only requires a crank trigger. These motors are batch fired. They're not sequentially injected. They do not use injector timing based on rpm. This motor runs no different whether the sensor is plugged in or not.
 

Pete fender

Pete Fender
All six of us decided to let you do as you think is correct.
The cam synchronizer has no useful purpose in your mind, and we don't have to deal with anything you work on.
So, in your world, it is only for driving the oil pump, and all of the car companies don't know as much as you. Ford does not even know there cars are not sequential injected, which of course they are.

The injection for each cylinder only occurs at the point the intake valve is open, making it sequential by definition. (The cam position sensor is there to know when the engine is at TDC, without it, it can't.)
But you know better.

You could inform them how to save a lot of money, by having seminars, and they would pay you to have such educational, money saving seminars.
Those of us who follow the practice of repairing cars and trucks the way the factory has taught us, and works best for us, will continue to do so, and waste our time doing things the correct way.
Just don't apply for a job in my shop.
 
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fasterthanyou

Active Member
What was the purpose of that video? Are you dense or what?? These motors are batch fire. The ecu commands bank 1 and bank 2 injectors to fire 270 degrees apart..

I wouldn't work for you because I couldn't work under someone who I know more than. I would be embarrassed to work for you if you're truly this dense.

You MUST be misunderstanding what I'm telling you because what I am telling you is 100% factual. I implore you to test this for yourself on any 94-04 3.8l

How can you possibly be misunderstanding what I'm saying so badly though? Or do you refuse to accept that what I am saying is true just because you're too stuck in your way of thinking that anything else is false??
 

fasterthanyou

Active Member
Just go effing unplug your cam sensor. It's not that difficult and you will notice that nothing effing happens aside from the check engine light comes on.

It's a diagnostic feature at best. Aside from that its effing useless. And in case you didn't get it the first 15 times I've said it, I'll say it again (on these motors). God damn, you're like talking to a wall.
 

fasterthanyou

Active Member
I went on a bit of a rant there huh.

So anyways, Don't call my integrity into question when it comes to repairing vehicles. I take pride in what I do and enjoy helping people out on this forum with their issues. Hell, even you benefited from the PCM pinout I posted on the other thread.

I highly doubt you own your own shop as you weren't even able to get your own pinout diagram but whatever dude, (that's just me speaking out loud there.)

Unfortunately I'll be blocking you along with mustang dude. You two people just are too effing uppity and act holier than thou when you really shouldn't because it makes you look dense.
 

Pete fender

Pete Fender
Like I said, do it your way, and I'll do it the correct way.
Fords are sequential, more efficient.
How long you been in the city, boy?
Go ahead and block me, but you really ought to check out what you say.
Batch firing is from the speed density days, they now use MAF.
 
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Chris Henderson

New Member
So.........Is the eec 4 & 5 batch fire or sequential?

FWIW - we had a 5.3 ls on the dyno once in full sequential setup. Was for my buddies efi class. He was showing the students how to test the injector inputs with a noid light. We randomly picked a cyl and told the ecu to test fire thar injector but nothing. We quickly learned in front of the class our dumbasses crossed the wires late night getting ready.
I can promise you when we fixed the issue. The motor repeated its self on the dyno with two crossed injectors just spraying fuel on the back of a closed intake valve. The motor didn't care.
I've tried both ways on my personal engine on the dyno and that alone makes no power difference including various injection timing changes throughout the rpm range.
There is however a bit of power to be had with individual cyl fuel trims which can only be had with sequential.
Most of what the oem does is all emissions and fuel economy based imho.
 
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Pete fender

Pete Fender
SEFI_Sequential Electronic Fuel Injection.

Removing the wire to the Cam position sensor may make the engine act like batch fire.
With batch fire, the fuel for one side is out of phase from the other, and since each side is injected, (all vales on that side) at once when some cylinders have the intake valve closed, fuel puddles until the valve opens.
Ford, and GM, and Chrysler now use sequential, which only sprays the valve that is beginning to open, so the others do not have raw fuel trapped on them.
This is what SEFI has over batch fire, no puddling, and only atomized fuel enters the cylinder, resulting in a smoother idle and more efficient running engine.
There is a slight increase in power, using SEFI.
 
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