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The Insanity

Discussion in 'Introductions' started by Ironhandx, Dec 7, 2012.

  1. Ironhandx

    Ironhandx New Member

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    So some of you may have seen me around here and on some other mustang forums recently.... but since this forum is dedicated to V6 mustangs I'll do a proper introduction and some back story on what I'm doing here.


    The What:

    Basically, what I am doing is building a road-race mustang. It has to be street legal(if barely, yay for little to no emissions here) and I decided a few years ago that the best way to do it was with a 03/04 Mustang with a heavily modified Cobra IRS. The car already has a very low profile, its one of the most aerodynamic mustang designs, the chassis is highly workable to lighten... plus I love the look of the 99-04 mustangs, that always helps.

    After looking through various options, 5.0L coyote swap in... various 4.6 builds(very briefly) and a few other things I ran across a few guys making 600+ HP on built 3.8L engines. Now I had considered the 3.8L initially because once the rest of the power plant internals go in and I finish lightening the rear end the balance of the car will be nearly perfect. I then dismissed it because I wasn't sure I could make the horsepower I need. I need a minimum of 600 horses, more is better. Thanks to a few forum posts and some confirmed dyno sheets I've seen that the 3.8L v6 is the best possible power plant for my needs. I will be having custom quick-spooling turbo-chargers built and pushing this engine to 25lbs+ of twin turbo boost. Ideally I would like to be able to run this car at 25lbs somewhere around 750+ horsepower, but 700 will do the trick. Even 650 might. If I have to push the engine to 30lbs to make 700+ happen, the engine will get it. As long as I can make sure the engine won't be what amounts to scrap metal within 10,000 KM(~6200 miles) I'm good.

    The Why:

    A bet.

    I have a friend. This friend recently purchased a Porsche Turbo 911. Thankfully it wasn't a Turbo S or I'd be in even more trouble than I am. He's essentially turned into Porsche snob overnight. He at one point raced Cobras but sold all 3 of them plus his Z06 vette to buy a Porsche.

    I told him I bet I could make something out of a Mustang that could beat, or at least come within 10 seconds of his track time around an on-road pre-determined course(public roads that get shut down for short times for something of this sort). He was delighted and took me up on it immediately.

    The Rules:

    Every major component(Suspension, Engine, Chassis, brakes, etc) has to be from a Mustang, a production Mustang variant, or at least be based on existing mustang designs with the exception of the forced induction system. What this amounts to is I can't put a viper engine in it just because it'll fit under the hood, and I can't build out some chassis mounts to swap in a Corevette ZR1 suspension. All upgrades designed to integrate with the existing Mustang tech is A-OK. Beyond that, since the Porsche is street legal, so must the Mustang be. In addition, as mentioned, I can't just push an engine beyond its breaking point for a single lap to win. The completely arbitrary endurance number is that the mustang has to -run- for 10,000 KM without anything more than an oil change/cleaning etc. Very routine maintenance.

    The Stakes:

    The cars. He understands what I'm building is going to cost something around 1/4 of what his Porsche cost, and he's so supremely confident that I won't be able to do it that he's fine with the roughly 4:1 odds. Honestly I have no idea which way it will go. I know we're both about equal drivers so that shouldn't be much of a factor.

    We have an agreement that if I don't manage to pull it off before he gets rid of his current 911 the bet is off, so time is a bit of a factor here. At his current approximation I have roughly 19 months from now until the bet is just off. At the same time I really really want to make this happen. If/when I feel this is finished we will do a best of 5 lap. Winner takes all.

    So, worst case I have a neat experience and learn a lot about cars, mustangs in particular. Second to worst case I have a pretty unique and awesome car. Best case I'm +1 turbo 911.

    So off I go armed with only some basic mechanical knowledge, an extreme propensity for quick learning, and a very good head for engineering and general numbers.

    Wish me luck! I was considering doing a build thread somewhere, so this shall be the place I do it since this will probably be the place it'll get the most appreciated.
     
  2. JpL4K3

    JpL4K3 Moderator

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    Welcome to V6MO, post some pics of the cars current state. I am interested to see your progress. Contact Diller on the site, he is huge into road racing his v6, and has done some extensive modifications to lighten his mustang.
     
  3. Markstang

    Markstang Polishing my banhammer Staff Member

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    so what exactly do you gain out of this bet?

    do you have any idea of just how much work you just signed yourself up for? hope you have a small fortune to get this done in the next year and a half.
     
  4. Ironhandx

    Ironhandx New Member

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    Its not so much that I have a small fortune as when I get paid I get paid in rather large chunks. I do quite well for myself and I don't have any payments etc outside a small mortgage. Beyond that work slows down an awful lot for me for the next ~2 1/2 months, so free time available is about to become significant.

    I do realize how much work I signed myself up for. I'm probably 100+ hours in on research alone right now. Fortunately I have a few good friends to help me with some of the mechanical work. $20/hr plus all the beer they can drink is a lovely steal.

    The gains I've already listed :)

    @jpl4k3 Thanks. I'll get in touch with him soon-ish. Hopefully he races on an IRS. I have a few questions about parts upgrades and quality etc. Would be nice to get some actual input from someone who has probably used them, particularly in a lighter setup of a V6.

    I'll get a full write-up done on exactly whats happening to the car posted soon, as I have to do one to keep track of it all for myself soon anyways. To say the list is long is an understatement.

    I'm also doing a full interior swap over the course of the next month or two. I have everything here to do it, just a matter of getting it done now. I wasn't going to, but I got a good deal on a full new leather interior out of a Mustang that got into a nasty front end accident(A Mustang, in a front end collision, who'd have thought it?? lol) and getting RID of the parchment that was on the only rust-free(at least mostly) V6 mustang I could find. Theres some surface rust on the chassis underneath but for here she may well have been garage stored for the last 10 years >_>

    I firmly believe that whoever decided Tan was the best color ever needs their balls put into a vice until they realize how wrong they were.
     
  5. Number Tew

    Number Tew Local Jester

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    Diller just recently swapped to the IRS. He noted, it feels more confident around the track than the solid rear, though he did say something about not noticing it being much better. He will post in here I'm quite sure.

    Welcome to the forums!

    If you are going IRS, I'd suggest the full tilt boogie bushing kit.

    On the note of the "rules" are you allowed to do a 4.2 or 4.3. It's the same block as the 3.8, just bored and stroked. That will help to get you some easy power.

    I think it's completely doable if you are willing to drop the coin. Wheels will be one of your more expensive things. You will need to immensely lighten up your rotating mass to get the most out of your power. Lightweight wheels and brakes if you can swing it.

    Aluminum driveshaft, but again, if you can swing it, carbon fiber.

    Are you allowed to strip down the interior? Remove the spare tire?

    I reccomend putting a cage in since you will have so much power.

    I also reccomend maximum motorsports K member, offset a arms, and coilover kit. I'll be getting it early on next year.

    If you can swing a t-56, or any other 6 speed, it will beneficial. Then throw some gears in the back.


    Then, when you're done, come out here and build my car. kthx.
     
  6. Norrisrn_V6Online

    Norrisrn_V6Online New Member

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    Should be a cool build to follow!! Best if luck to ya. I'm confused on what you win as well, your not gonna race for pink slips right?? Just winning the right to say you built and beat a Porsche???
     
  7. Markstang

    Markstang Polishing my banhammer Staff Member

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    you're probably going to need to lose the interior altogether.

    i missed it the first couple times i read it, it's one very short sentence fragment after "The Stakes:"
    "The cars."
     
  8. Ironhandx

    Ironhandx New Member

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    Yep, actually legitimately the pink slips if it comes to it and he won't back down when she's done, or if for some reason I can't get it finished in time before he tosses his current 911.

    I'm also not allowed to get rid of the interior. It has to do it fully loaded. 4.2L stroker is what I'm getting done as I've been informed it can handle more boost if I need it to. I'm adding weight to the interior but only around 40lbs or so in leather. The entire interior of the car(the new one) weighs in at 163lbs so its not exactly a major cutting. The largest thing I can cut is the back seat, which we are still arguing about. I say I should be able to delete it as the porsche by a fair comparison doesn't have one at all. The spare can go since porsches don't carry one anyways.

    The transmission I'm currently looking at is a TKO 600. its a 5 speed but its a significant improvement over a T-5 and it will handle all of the power I can throw at it.

    If Diller only recently swapped in the IRS and hasn't built it yet then thats why he's not seeing a massive massive difference over a SRA. The IRS in the Cobra is one of the finest simple IRS designs available anywhere. They just built it with absolutely **** components and no coil-overs. The problem is it was based on the design of a $30,000 rear suspension(that never actually shipped without coilovers...) and it cost them less than $12,000 to put it into the cars. Thanks to mass manufacturing and time we can now restore the IRS of a Cobra to very nearly the performance of the 30k suspension its design was based on for ~4-6k depending.

    All I need to do is get the cars handling to 85-90% of the porsche, then turbo the engine to all unholy hell and make up the rest on raw power to weight ratio. The car with everything in it without lightening it will weigh less than the porsche when its done. When I'm finished lightening it, it will weigh a LOT less, and hopefully have 200+ more horsepower.
     
  9. Number Tew

    Number Tew Local Jester

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    So awesome!

    I say do the front MM susepension. Are you allowed to do any fiberglass or carbon fiber panels?

    Make sure to invest in some good R compound tires. I'd say 90% of your handling and braking is your tires.
     
  10. SlowSix01

    SlowSix01 Active Member

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    This should be interesting...and pricey.
     
  11. Silversleeper

    Silversleeper New Member

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    I cant wait to hear the outcome what time frame are you looking at to actually do the race? Have you started your build yet?
     
  12. Ironhandx

    Ironhandx New Member

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    Time frame is sometime within 19 months, but I'd like to have this build done in time for next September. We have a race here called Targa that I'd like to put a good effort in at winning. There is only one car here that I know of capable of beating this build IF I manage to make it as good as I think it can be. Also they do the categories wierdly so I could end up racing against V6 Miatas etc. and embarrassing them would be kind of funny.

    My build has sort of started. I've got most of the research done, talent on deck, and I just uncrated the new interior. The engine is currently being built with a completion time of around mid-feb. and I'm looking for a good IRS to send to boogie to be built. I have Boogies lightweight brakes on order already.

    Fibre and carbon panels are allowed, and may be integrated to some extent. I haven't seen any companies yet that make good replacement panels. Car still has to be presentable, and has to be its current color. Due to the relatively small benefit for this and relatively high cost, unless I find some good pre-fab panels somewhere, I'm probably going to skip this for now. According to my calculations replacing every piece possible is only ~50lbs drop because the things are made of nearly nothing already. Best estimate is this 50 lbs would cost me in the neighbourhood of 8k, otherwise known as the same cost as the engine.

    I can't use a carbon drive shaft because it will disintegrate. Not due to torque, but if I hit something with it(which is entirely possible) its entirely likely to turn to dust around the impact point.
     
  13. Number Tew

    Number Tew Local Jester

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    I'll see if I can dig up fiberglass panels. Any company that makes glass panels could make carbon fiber just as easily. If you paid for it at least. That's what I do for a living, so I know haha.

    What's your plan for a fuel system. You'll need something serious
     
  14. Ironhandx

    Ironhandx New Member

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    60lb injectors and a cobra return fuel system. Looking for stock fuel rails, tank, lines and pumps right now.
     
  15. Number Tew

    Number Tew Local Jester

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    I think you'll need more than a cobra pump to keep up with it. And a sumped tank. Since you plan on roadcoursing, you really don't want the pump to run dry at all. 03/04 tanks are sumped and baffled to help make that not happen.

    I'm so excited for this. I'm living my dream through you haha, since I don't have the money :D
     
  16. JTsStang

    JTsStang Boosted V6

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    Not enough injector. This is how I will be doing my fuel setup...

    Stock tank with single in tank 255l<8an- line feeding 1 gal surge tank, magnafuel 750 feeding the rail with 100m filter inline< -8an return to surge< -8an overflow form surge to tank.
     
  17. Silversleeper

    Silversleeper New Member

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    Im so excited for this its going to be amazing!
     
  18. Markstang

    Markstang Polishing my banhammer Staff Member

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    question, what do you do with the stupid evap system in such a modified fuel tank?.
     
  19. Ironhandx

    Ironhandx New Member

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    It should be enough injector, then again I was talking to Ryan at Morris engines(They're doing the tuning) and he's stated I can't really go too high on the injector so I'll probably pick up 80lb.

    Thanks for the support Number Tew. Since I do have the money, but its a near thing, I'll be trying to save as much as I can in the process. If you've been dreaming this up longer than I have and have some suggestions I'm more than happy to have them :D. A used Cobra tank is pretty much the best possible solution for me at the moment. I am specificlaly looking for the Termi parts.

    I just realized I haven't even considered the most important part beyond the suspension characteristics... Steering. I imagine I'm going to need to either convert to standard steering or beef up the power steering somehow, any suggestions?
     
  20. JTsStang

    JTsStang Boosted V6

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    Leave it alone, no need to touch the evap.